Hydrogen alternative fuel for existing cars

Um, yeah, right. Something for nothing.

And where does the energy to split the water come from? Let me guess, electricity from the alternator. Where does that come from? Engine (with losses).

Could it increase power or reduce emmissions? Yeah, in theory (though not really likely to increase power due to chemistry and gas-pressure reasons). Increase gas mileage? No bloddy way unless you generate the hydrogen while plugged into a wall outlet at night (and that's not what this is).

Snake oil. Hang it on the wall next to the rare-earth magnets to wrap around the fuel lines to "align the polarities of the gas molecules".

>>Um, yeah, right. Something for nothing.

Yeah, I'm well away of the laws of thermodynamics and that energy cannot be created or destroyed . However, it's possible that the electricity drawn from the battery/alternator to convert water into hydrogen does not wear the battery down. Heck, between my GPS, iPod, cell phone charger, and radar detector all connected to my cigarette adaptors (plus a splitter to add more outlets) that doesn't affect the battery nor my fuel usage.

Of couse, these devices draw much less power than converting water to hydrogen, I'm sure. Nevertheless, I'm not yet ready to call this technology snake oil.

Could be wishful thinking on my part, but I'd like to see a solution to the world's oil & energy problems in my lifetime. Could this be it? Who knows? We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

That energy in the battery comes from somewhere, remember.

Actually, all of those do affect your fuel usage (though not by a lot). As does running with your lights on, etc. A/C in some conditions (eg highway) can reduce usage if it keeps you from rolling down your windows and increasing drag, but otherwise costs somewhere around 1-2 MPG as best I remember.

As for splitting hydrogen - you may increase peak power (though I doubt it) by splitting during normal/idle times, and burning it on full-throttle.

The problem is that given hydrogen is a light gas, it will displace oxygen in the cylinder, which atomized gasoline doesn't really do. The max power of an engine of a specific configuration is pretty much determined by the amount of oxygen it can pump through and use for burning (and torque is determined by the amount it can pump in one cycle (2 revolutions)).

Here's your energy budget:
Normal: burn gas to get X HP
Quackery: burn gas to get X HP. Convert that to electricity in the alternator at maybe 55% efficiency. Convert that electricity to hydrogen at maybe 80% efficiency. Burn that hydrogen at around 20-25% efficiency (yes, that's the efficiency of a *good* otto-cycle engine).

Net result:
Normal - X HP.
Quackery - X*.55*.8*.25 = X * 0.11
Even if conversion to H2 is 100% efficient, you're talking around 13% total efficiency.

So, best-case you're losing around 7/8 of what you put in.

You'd do far better to run that electricity back through the alternator (as a motor, ala "soft" hybrids) - you might get 25% back. And you could (in soft-hybrid mode) capture energy from the system when braking, so you're not burning gas in the first place, you're slowing the car which you wanted to do anyways. So it's "free", and the 25% you get back is all savings of fuel. (Full hybrids capture more of braking HP, have more efficient motors and more efficient alternators to charge the battery while driving (which costs a bit less since with smaller engines they can run them at a more efficient overall cycle when charging, effectively increasing compression ratio). They may still be net-loss for charging from engine power, though - they get better mileage because of a) braking recapture, and b) they can use a smaller much more efficient engine all the time because for full acceleration they can supplement with electric.

Oh sure, pull out physics to make your point. Does this mean I need to crack open my college physics books sitting in my attic? ; )

I'm skeptical as well. But here's some more food for fodder. Some more snake oil for you to dispute - check out these links:

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/article.htm

Could be just another Internet crackpot, but my heart aches for these links to be true...

that along with cold fusion! : )

The efficiency of using hydrogen as a fuel is woeful, as stated above. However, in this and similair applications the hydrogen is not really a fuel as such but a combustion modifier. The gas is not produced in enough quantities to produce much power in itself (or to take much from the alternator). There are good reasons why it works as a combustion modifier (some that i dont understand fully or have learnt form a non-corroborated source so have put "may" in the statement):
1) It has very wide flammability limits, meaning it will sustain combustion in gas pockets in the cylinder that would otherwise be too lean or too rich to burn off, and allows carburettion to be set leaner than would otherwise be possible;
2) It may increase flame speed, meaning that more of the fuel is burned before the exhaust valve opens, and also allows for a later ignition timing
3) Hydrogen has a high octane rating so will help prevent knocking and allow later ignition timing
4) Hydrogen may help breakdown of carbon chains, giving cleaner burn
5) Hydrogen should reduce carbon deposits through cleaner burn and chemical action (reduction)
It should be noted that in idependent lab tests of retro-fit fuel savers, the only type that produces significant and repeatable improvements in mpg are the hydrogen boosters. It is a shame that the only people that seem to be developing this technology are individual enthusiasts and their slightly ramshackle companies. If a proper manufacturer could nail the most efficient parameters, and design it to work with their engine management systems then i suspect pretty good efficiency gains could be produced.
This really isnt snake oil, though i doubt the designs are close to the potential of this technology yet, but still worth considering.

Hydrogen has an octane rating of 130+ and the preferred air to fuel stociametry is typicaly much higher than gasoline. It is because of these two main reasons that it is seldom that hydrogen generators by themselves produce high efficency in IC engines.

I am applying my graduation fundas here.

Hydrogen can be created from steam reforming of natural gas. Hydrogen can also be produced by the electrolysis of water (H2O), in which the bonds of the molecules that make up water are split to create hydrogen and oxygen. That process, however, requires significant energy to occur and is not currently cost competitive with other methods.
The fuel cells used on space aircrafts could be used to create energy to run vehicles on the earth. The residue of these fuel cells is water. Through this pollution can be controlled to a larger extent.
Using Hydrogen as fuel is not possible in next 60 years atleast. The temperature requirement for breaking down hydrogen to generate electricity is very large. Fusion bombs...you must have heard about them...sun to gets its enrgy from same hydrogen..

http://voipphone-service.blogspot.com/

I have seen a Hydro - electrolysis system mounted under the hood of a '88 Toyota pickup a month back. It was incredibly simple to make. only cost the guy 40$ to make. He claimed to get 57 mpg with a certain type of welding rod. Of which I couldn't remember. but with just plain old copper for electrodes in a sealed tube of ABS plastic with a vacume line from it to the throttle body of his 22R engine. He gave me some tips for making the electrolysis more efficient. 1) bring the pH level of the water to 10. 2) space the electrodes a zip tie width apart from each other. 3) Don't just use one positive and negetive electrode rod, bundle 4 or 5 rods together for the positive and negetive - This creates more surface area for the water to touch. He said that he was able to fill up a 2 litre pop bottle in 30 seconds with the particular tube he showed me. He then capped it off with a special blasting cap and blew it up for fun.

Hydrogen good stuff, did experiment with it with success (however, no overunity), Browns gas appears to exibit some unusal properties, maybe?.

However, due to this guy's claims I do not think he has got it, quite simply a 10% increase in your mileage can be easily achived by a good water injection system, and also with some reduction in polutants.

I believe this is someone whom spent a great deal of money (possibly starting as save the world idea) on something that appears like a good short term money generating idea/publicity, highly likely based on electroloysis or Browns gas generator with little success using the energy stored in his automobile battery/alternator. When the battery drains his hydrogen generator will not work, because the alternator hasn't got enough juice. I'm sick and tired of bull claims, prove your invention or stay in obscurity, if it is in testing stage than it doesn't mean anything, another words is a put on the shelf modern junk art.....if the government/oil companies are the problem and you truly want to save the world make your ideas available to the world, if its that good it will take off and you will achieve money and fame....

Bottom line, increases in mileage by using hydrocarbons is still a recipe for disaster, ask the question "why are you trying to get better mileage with using gasoline or any hydrocarbons?". Get it, gas is not the answer! by any means.

keep trying

Hydrogen good stuff, did experiment with it with success (however, no overunity), Browns gas appears to exibit some unusal properties, maybe?.

However, due to this guy's claims I do not think he has got it, quite simply a 10% increase in your mileage can be easily achived by a good water injection system, and also with some reduction in polutants.

I believe this is someone whom spent a great deal of money (possibly starting as save the world idea) on something that appears like a good short term money generating idea/publicity, highly likely based on electroloysis or Browns gas generator with little success using the energy stored in his automobile battery/alternator. When the battery drains his hydrogen generator will not work, because the alternator hasn't got enough juice. I'm sick and tired of bull claims, prove your invention or stay in obscurity, if it is in testing stage than it doesn't mean anything, another words is a put on the shelf modern junk art.....if the government/oil companies are the problem and you truly want to save the world make your ideas available to the world, if its that good it will take off and you will achieve money and fame....

Bottom line, increases in mileage by using hydrocarbons is still a recipe for disaster, ask the question "why are you trying to get better mileage with using gasoline or any hydrocarbons?". Get it, gas is not the answer! by any means.

keep trying

Interesting,

Here we are a year plus from last post and a dozen or better advances in hydrogen fuel applications. I have been researching this for years, and have successfully used hydrogen to enhance my vehicles economy, and it just keeps getting better and better.

All one has to do is keep current with the advances to learn that hydrogen is certainly worth a closer look. As is well documented, this is not new technology, but it certainly is a refined one and with enhanced production of hydrogen with little input, I have no doubt there is more output than input for the PhD minded set who originally questioned this factor.

There is much to learn and it serves no one to put hydrogen down as if not viable when we find new mediums of producing more cost effective hydrogen every day. I have seen a dozen such breakthroughs in last year alone, so never say never, hydrogen is a viable, and when combined with solar advances, battery advances and hydrogen generation, it's just a matter of time.

End Foreign Oil Dependency,

It's good to hear BP & GM talk about alternative fuels, but 50 years to implement is too long.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/05/news/companies/bigoil_hydrogen/index.htm

Perhaps this link will spark more attention:

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/

It is GM's electric concept car the Chevy
Volt. If more people begin to demand
alternative fuel cars, we should be able to
speed the rate at which the technology is
developed.

We have started an Investor Forum where
Investors can meet and discuss topics like
this:

http://www.thesubway.com/small-cap-forum/

Good facts. I'm gonna wait for the next update on this.